Monday, November 17, 2014

Banished, post-mortem

As a post-mortem I’m writing about my experience being banned or what looks to be like total banishment from NRO with examples of what I posted. I don’t think what I posted was offensive enough to banish me for life, but I’m pro-choice I’m sure that’s a major part of it. 

Right off the bat, I was called a liar for my first post. I linked to the story from Media Matters and only wanted to comment to clarify my concern for women that may have an ectopic pregnancy. I wanted to voice my concern that an ectopic pregnancy can be very dangerous and life threatening for women if it is not watched or treated by a doctor. A friend had just gone through an ectopic pregnancy after several miscarriages. She was devastated but glad to have caught the problem and be alive to go on to have a child. 

The response to me was: 

I got flagged on my first post. 

My response: 

Nordog6561's response: 

My response to Nordog6561: 

Rob Hobart responded to Nordog6461:

I responded:

Hobart's response: 

Another response to Mars Attacks! about the seriousness of an ectopic pregnancy from the Mayo Clinic. (Sorry this is not in the correct chronological order but you get the gist of what I'm saying. 

Then came more "@trolls" even though I was being civil as I knew I was in enemy territory and was only trying to clarify the point that ectopic pregnancies are dangerous for women. 

Then all of my posts when to auto-delete. Since I had never posted there before I kept posting and not understanding that my posts kept getting deleted. 

Even though my posts were deleted commenters were still able to respond to me. Here are a few examples.

All pictures are PDFs that have been saved to images to post. None of these images have been altered or photoshopped. My posts were sourced from my disqus account since they have been deleted from NRO. 

If you would like to read for yourself (minus my deleted posts) see


  1. Thanks for linking me to this. Being pro-choice at NRO won't win one a popularity contest. I have posted substantively on this topic once ever, since I'm a man, and think such a decision is made by a woman an her doctor. I have written extensivy on this as a legal issue, a topic of little interest to most.

  2. I will repost what I posted elsewhere —

    As I recall that fight, Wendy Davis was pushing the credulity-stretching claim that both her abortions were necessitated by vanishingly rare complications — and poor Wendy got struck by lightning twice. Which allows her to earn the abortion merit badge while evading all moral culpability.

    So, first, it's highly unlikely her story is even true. And, if true, excising an ectopic pregnancy isn't an abortion, since an ectopic pregnancy is never going to come to term anyway.

    All claims about the rarity of the condition were simply to illustrate the unlikelihood of Wendy Davis's story being true. (And her track record as a fabulist was already well-established.)

    The fact that 77 percent of ectopic pregnancies resolve on their own makes her claim even more unbelievable. Rarely is intervention necessary.

    I imagine this beef-witted maneuver started with a brain-storming session wherein was asked the question "What pregnancy complication is most terrifying" and went from there.

    My finely calibrated BS detector tells me she made the whole thing up.

    I think where you got your tail caught in the door was thinking that anyone was minimizing the seriousness of ectopic pregnancies. Rather, we were responding to Wendy partisans who were trying to defend her claims as believable by asserting that ectopic pregnancies are common. They are not.

  3. Thanks for posting here. I posted a response on the other thread and will repost it here when my internet service returns to my computer. I haven't learned how to cut and paste on an iPhone yet. I'm not a tech person and I'm pretty analog.

    I appreciate you're response and just wanted to voice why I got banned at NRO so quickly and my experience. Even though we don't agree on much I give you mad props for being friends with Demosthenes. I think you are an interesting person and appreciate the dialog. I like to engage in dialog with those who have different viewpoints and opinions. One of my best friends is an evangelical Christian. We have much in common despite our view points on Christianity. This will be the last story on NRO I just wanted to clear my name. I'm working on a story about a Syrian man who is taking care of abandoned cats.

  4. I know. I'm still pissed off at diqus for the "upgrade." But they are the only game in town for commenting. I really really miss switchback. My computer is already slow and loading the disqus comments takes forever. This is why I'm resonding on my phone. Feel free to post here anytime. I'm new at the mid thing and have no idea how to ban anyone. But you get a special pass from the hall monitor here. :)

  5. Oh, about NRO.

    I didn't see your comment there, but the fence went down yesterday and there was a major troll incursion. It may have been that your comment would have been auto-deleted but your comment stuck around for a while until things were fixed today.

  6. Thanks for posting here! Great to see you. I posted this to explain why I was banned and I didn't mean to rock the boat at NRO but just wanted voice my opinion in a civil way.

    I appreciate your viewpoint and your tenacity to post at NRO. Opposition and debate is good for everyone. I would like to hear your legal opinion about this topic. I would find it very interesting. Please feel free to comment here. Maybe a guest post from you? I'm working on more stories that will diverge from bullying but focus on gardening, DIY self sufficiency, politics, culture, and of course cats. :)

  7. Cool. I understand. I thought since I confessed to sneaking a comment in I got an @troll.
    Even though we don't agree you've grown on me. You kind of remind me of my conservative uncle I argue with. We all mean well even if we don't agree.

  8. The author is clearly not obsessed with NRO at all. No sir, not one bit.

  9. Hi Iron Scruffy, thank you for posting. I'm the author. I'm not obsessed with NRO but curious at its inner workings of how the community operates. I'm a very curious person and some may see this as an obsession. I like to study something until I understand it. I do not feel that I was fairly banned at NRO and at the same time understand I am not part of the community there. The up side to this is that I've engaged in meaningful dialog with the "opposition." I hate to say it but Mars Attacks! has grown on me. We don't agree but I hope he understands where I'm coming from. I also appreciate taking to Demosthenes. He taught me how to curse in Greek. Not that I will use it.

  10. I'll keep my comment short, but I have a view on "Roe v. Wade" that is unconventional. I wish the decision has just stood for the proposition that states can set their own rules. Hence, Illinois, California, New York, among others, would have legal abortion. Others, such as Texas, Mississippi, and Alabama, would ban it.

  11. Great post. I can't fully comment now. I'm on my phone and would like to read it on a larger screen. Hope you don't mind if I respond later? Have a pleasant evening too.

  12. Demo, I think your view is one shared by many conservatives. I think it is certainly the correct view of the dubious constitutionality of Roe.

    As I'm sure you know, I view abortion as a civil rights issue. Since there is no scientific basis for drawing a line between conception and birth, we should draw no such line that presumes to separate those entitled to legal protection as persons and those who are not. If you can arbitrarily draw some people out of personhood during one phase of human existence, what is the bar to excluding other people from personhood during some other phase of human existence?

    In an ideal world, I think an absolute ban is morally correct, but I am not one to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

    I'll take whatever recisions are practicable, wherever I can find them.

  13. I respect your view, of course. I disagree on the substance, but I make an effort to not post anywhere on this, as you know. As we lawyers say, "I lack standing".

    We can disagree, but it is good we are not disagreeable.

  14. I meant to add that, as a lawyer, you are surely aware that the "not a person" argument was precisely what was argued by the gov't in Standing Bear v. Crook to deny Indians the right of Habeas Corpus. It is an argument with a long and ugly history as an instrument through which the strong have oppressed the weak.

  15. We have a long and troubled history of the court's ruling poorly on myriad issues. Koramatsu v. U.S., Plessy v. Ferguson, and others blight our law books, to the ever-lasting shame of my profession. (Of course, there are good decisions as well, such as Brown . Board of Education).

  16. Hi everyone. Thanks for posting I just signed up today for disqus comments. Therefor there is basically no modoration. Please keep it civil no punchng below the belt. My mom is checkn

  17. Hi Mars - Here's what I posted at the other thread. Sorry it took so long. My internet on my home computer just craps out sometimes.

    Thanks for your response. I wasn't posting at NRO to defend Davis but to talk about ectopic pregnancy. I grew up Catholic and understand there are exceptions for life and health of the mother if she has an ectopic pregnancy to end the pregnancy so she won't die. However, the Catholic Church says to end an ectopic pregnancy a woman must have her fallopian tube removed and she is not permitted to take methotrexate to end an ectopic pregnancy because that would be considered morally wrong. See

    This can be devastating for any woman trying to conceive a pregnancy. My friend I was referring to had been trying to get pregnant for several years. She had two miscarriages and then an ectopic pregnancy. She was able to take methotrexate to end the pregnancy and saved her fallopian tube. She now has two beautiful children because she was able to maintain her fertility.

    Also, in medical terminology a miscarriage is called a "spontaneous abortion." When I'm discussing reproductive health issues I use the correct medical terminology to be as accurate as possible, not to be mean to women who've suffered a miscarriage. ( I wasn't trying to say that "pro-life" women who've suffered an ectopic pregnancy had an abortion.

    Yesterday I posted a "hi" at NRO and saw today it had been deleted even though it was upvoted by Eponymous1 for commenting on my love of bacon. I wasn't trying to troll NRO but just say "hi."

    I'm using disqus comments at my blog so I'll get to test out my ability as a moderator. I do understand why you all at NRO have a community of regulars to help with controlling the trolls. I see some of the anti-Semitic crap people post. Glad you are removing that. I understand community and know I'm not a welcome part of the NRO community. I thought I might be able to have a civil discussion with those on the other side. Feel free to post at my blog I'm sure the discuss mods on this thread are getting annoyed. Again I appreciate the response. Even though we don't agree on much it's been fun talking to you.

  18. Now YOU are the Mod.

    You can ban US. Pretty fun, right?

  19. I know isn't it funny. I'm a "mod" :)))
    Now I just have to add disqus comments to my other blog, I also need to update it as I haven't blogged there for years.

    Like I told Mars you get a special hall pass. I think my friends on the left are mad at me for hanging out with the "enemy."

  20. I'm I correct that you see abortion as a states rights issue? If this were to happen where abortion would be permitted in Illinois, California, New York, among others and prohibited in Texas, Mississippi, and Alabama. I see this as problematic because it would unfairly effect lower income women and families. For example, abortion is illegal in Ireland but it's well known many women from Ireland go to the UK or EU con tries to get an abortion. ( of course this takes resources which all women don't have. Even when abortion was illegal in the US more well to do women could access abortion.

    I'm glad to see you disagree with the current GOP view seeking a blanket banning and criminalization. I think an outright ban and criminalizing abortion will never work. I also agree people need to vote even if they are anarchists like me. I voted in the last election. Although I do feel that I'm not represented in politics and and disenfranchised but I vote.

  21. I fully understand we are not on the same side of the abortion issue. You and Demo are both eloquent and articulate writers. Which is no surprise since I think you said you're a writer and Demo is a Lawyer. Even though we don't agree I find your and Demo's writing thought provoking.

    To address your post, I think Gov. Rick Perry has voiced this view of abortion being governed at the state level. It's an interesting proposal but I don't think it is workable. Abortion is as old as pregnancy and if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant she will pretty much do anything not to be. For example. A friend of mine didn't have enough money to get an abortion. She did a DIY herbal abortion. It was a three day process of taking abortive herbs and massage. It was about four years after that she had a baby boy. Many women have the knowledge of how to perform herbal abortions, and menstrual extractions of Roe is overturned. Even if you are morally opposed to abortion understand outlawing it won't end abortion. I say think not to pick a fight but as a point to consider.

  22. Abortion is as old as pregnancy and if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant she will pretty much do anything not to be.

    Actually, abortion does not have a long history.

    When abortion was not available, women did not seek abortion by any means: they married the fathers of their babies. For the working class, that was the long-established means of mate selection.

    The horror stories about back-alley abortions are largely a myth. I'm not in a mood to google, but you can find tables of maternal deaths in childbirth and deaths due to complications from abortion and the two track closely. In both cases, it was the result of septicemia and, in both cases, was alleviated by the advent of antibiotics in the late 1940s. In fact, infections were, overall, the leading cause of death prior to antibiotics.

    There are far more deaths due to complications from abortion today, simply because there are more abortions.

  23. We are going to have to agree to disagree but I will try to write a post later to address this. I'm at work right now and am up to my eyeballs working on budgets. If my internet access is working at home I'll try to get something posted later tonight.

  24. I agree that abortion restrictions only impact those with limited means. People with money can always get it. Elimination of legally available abortion in places like Texas would go virtually unnoticed by the residents of wealthy Highland Park, for example. They would merely hop on a plane and fly to Chicago, San Francisco, etc.

    Would such an unfair result finally wake up the lazy/stupid nonvoters in those states? I don't know.

    I'm glad you vote. I never miss a chance to vote, even when the choice is suboptimal. In 2012, despite many misgivings about Pres. Obama, I voted for him solely because I know I would prefer his judicial picks over those selected by Gov. Romney. (I otherwise view Pres. Obama as a weak leader, and truly believe his presidency is a huge missed opportunity.)

    Have a nice evening.

  25. I think you and I are on the same page. When Sophie B was posting as "Joanie" I talked to her about Romney vs Huntsman. Why did the GOP pick Romney? I'm not a conservative but thought Huntsman would be a much better choice as a presidential candidate over Romney. I wasn't lying to her when I said I had the chance to meet him and was impressed. He speaks Mandarin. How cool is that? If Huntsman was pro-choice I would have been more impressed.


  26. Yes, and right now it's eating my computer.

    Are you back at LAN? If so say "hi" to Calvin. Please invite him to stop by my blog. He always has an open invitation. :)

  27. Hi Mars I’m posting this in two posts because it’s long. Part I.

    I read the article, “Fictional Abortion History” By Dyer. He referenced the book Roe v. Wade: The Abortion Rights Controversy in
    Historical Perspective (2010), by N. E. H. Hull and Peter Charles Hoffer focuses on abortion form the 19th century and forward.
    I haven’t read the book but am putting this on my reading list. Dyer’s claim is that “Historians
    sought to preserve ‘the guise of impartial scholarship’ while advancing ideological goals.” Dyer is not impartial on his view of abortion. I think his response is not so much scholarship but cherry picking. I understand what Dyer
    is saying that if it’s established that abortion was common-law in colonial times then abortion would be protected by the 19th amendment. I think there is enough scholarly evidence to prove abortion existed in colonial times and was tolerated.

    In the book, “When Abortion Was a Crime” by Leslie J. Reagan from the introduction, “Common Law and the Criminalization of Abortion” it states, “Abortion was not always a crime. During the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, abortion of early pregnancy was legal under common law.[22] Abortions were illegal only after "quickening," the point at which a pregnant woman could feel the movements of the fetus (approximately the fourth month of pregnancy). The common law's attitude toward pregnancy and abortion was based on an understanding of pregnancy and human development as a process rather than an absolute moment. Indeed, the term abortion referred only to the miscarriages of later pregnancies, after quickening. What we would now identify as an early induced abortion was not called an "abortion" at all” (online at;brand=ucpress)

    The article by Dyer addresses abortion in the U.S. from the 19th century. In the book “Contraception and Abortion in Nineteenth-Century America” by Janet Farrell Brodie she states the three methods of reproductive control were, “coitus interruptus, abortion, and breastfeeding.” (

    I would assert that abortion has existed for thousands of years worldwide. Artist Heather Ault created a body of work showing that contraception and abortion go back at least 4000 years, called “4000 Years of Choice.” There is a video of her online explaining the project at Abortion and birth control date back thousands of years,

  28. Part II

    The second link was to a message board and didn’t seem credible. Although, I found a reference to the book, “A Midwife's Tale” by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich. I’m adding this to my reading list too.

    As for the article “The Symbol of a Lie” by Williamson, I stopped when he evoked Valerie Solanas. Personally I don’t like Williamson. He tweeted that women who’ve had an abortion should be hung. All I can say is watch the documentary, ‘When Abortion was Illegal” at

    “Women suffering complications from back alley or self-induced abortions avoided admitting what they had done. As a result, many women died from untreated infections while some hemorrhaged to death. Candid interviews reveal
    the tragedies, as well as the courage and heroism of a shrouded time. This poignant oral history weaves together the untold stories of these women with the work of individuals who risked arrest in order to help them.”

    Also from Guttmacher, Illegal Abortion Is Usually
    Unsafe Abortion at

    BTW I like “Mars Attacks!” better than “Th_Ph.” Sounds much more hip.

  29. You need to read the KW article because it is rich with links to primary sources.

    Also, see page 21 in this article.

  30. When abortion was illegal well to do women could always access an abortion from a physician. This is true that they didn’t self-abort. However if you were poor this wasn’t the case. I see this as a class issue. Even Demo agrees with me that wealthy or rich women will be able to access abortion legal or illegal.

    Read page 40 form the CDC about abortion mortality rates for illegal and legal abortion at The rates in death from abortion have dropped since 1973. There were six deaths in 2007 from legal abortion. (Williamson cited this in his article)

    I would say Dr. Nancy Howell Lee does a good job at disputing Williamson in the article, “Women of America, Beware! SCOTUS Wants to Party Like It’s 1969 at
    She is the author of “The Search for an Abortionist.” From Howell, “My study was based on 114 volunteers, American women between 17 and 52, …….” In her article she is not addressing self-induced abortions.

    Here are some links on self-induced abortions before Roe:

  31. In 2007, six women also died, so you've gained nothing. And the CDC has been cagy about collecting these statistics.

    If holding abortion clinics to the same standards as ambulatory surgical centers restricts access for the poor, why would you wish upon the poor access to unsafe conditions?

    As Rick Perry correctly points out, Joan Rivers and Kanye West's mother would still be alive if ambulatory surgical centers in other states were held to the same standards as those in Texas.

  32. I will preface this with the acknowledgment we disagree on this subject. I'm happy to respond to your posts but I doubt we will reach an agreement. I enjoy talking to you but we maybe we should sick to talking about issues that are not related to abortion. I would hate for the "fuzzy warm" feelings of a truce to be wiped away by a nasty argument.

    Moving on…..
    Legal first trimester abortions are very safe. Abortion is a medical procedure that is highly regulated. "The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 weeks or later.[12]" (

    In 2012 there were 66,098 abortions in Texas and no fatalities. This was before TRAP laws. From Dr. Gunter an OB/GYN, "Abortion is one of the most regulated procedures in the United States so we have very accurate data both federally and at the state level. The last time a woman died in Texas and it was recorded as abortion-related was 2008. Yes, I had to review 5 years of data to find one death, or one death out of 364,225 procedures (a mortality rate per procedure of 0.0000275%). Using 5 years of data the death rate from abortion is 0.27 per 100,000 procedures, but if I only went back 4 years it would be zero."


    Primary source, 12. Bartlett LA et al., Risk factors for legal induced abortion-related mortality in the United States, Obstetrics & Gynecology, 2004, 103(4):729–737.

  33. I agree. I've enjoyed talking with you and don't want things to go south.

    I would like to see no abortion, for reasons I have explained. I cannot imagine anyone not experiencing profound revulsion at the very idea — it inverts the natural tenderness we should feel toward the small and helpless. However, I think there is also terrible exploitation of the women who do seek abortions, so I would like to see substandard providers chased from the marketplace. A Kermit Gosnell may give a black eye to the abortion industry, but he also killed.

    Also, the disproportionate number of blacks who are aborted is disturbing — especially when one considers the complexion and affluence of the sort of women who sit on the board of Planned Parenthood. It has a reek of eugenics about it.

  34. Cool.

    Gosnell is a horrible person. I think most pro-choice folks would agree on this. In a perfect world with 100% perfect birth control there would be no need for abortion.

    As for caring about the small and helpless. I've rescued three songbirds, one brown bat, and an American Coot and brought them to a wildlife rehabilitation clinic. I feel a spiritual connection with God/Goddess being outside in nature. I'm a nature freak, birdwatcher, urban farmer, DIY enthusiast, and have a lot of love for the world. I'm not a saint but I help out those in need.

    Were you pulling my leg about your cats?

    p.s. I do disagree about your opinion of PP but let's save that for another time.

  35. No, true about the cats. I'll tell you something else funny. The forest cat loves to sit in the open window in cold weather. We call it his "ice bathing." He jumps up on the window sill and scratches on the glass so I open the window. The colder the better. In sub-zero weather, we're practically dying from the frigid air pouring in. We can stand about five minutes of it before I have to chase him out of the window and close it tight.

  36. Okay good. I thought you were making fun of me for being a "crazy cat lady." I'm more of a "cat whisperer." I have this thing with animals, they seem to like me and gravitate to me especially cats.

    Sounds like your cat is living up to being a forest cat. What we think is strange cats think its normal. My calico cat does the same thing your cat does. She claws and the window and makes these weird noises until I open it. I don't get it. It's cold out.

    What I really would like to blog about is cat care and how to take care of elderly cats. My cat Ben lived to be 22 years old. He had a lot of health problems but with good care he thrived into is last days. I would like to help others take good care of their elder cats. Here's a link to some photos of my Ben,

    If you get a chance check out my latest post about the Syrian ambulance driver who is taking care of abandoned cats.

  37. Hi Mars, I'm starting a cat blog and need help naming it. If you have suggestions post at

    Thanks! :)

  38. Are you a "cat person?" I know Mars has cats not sure where you stand on the subject. I'm starting a cat blog and need help naming it. Maybe something in Greek? If you have suggestions post at


  39. Not sure if you are a cat person but I'm starting a cat blog and need help naming it. If you have suggestions post at


  40. I am horribly allergic to cats and most dogs, so I'm not helpful.

    A friend named their cat "Zeus". I think cats are more feminine so "Hera" or "Aphrodite" works.

  41. Something CATchy would be good. Sections could be CATegories.

  42. I love it. Maybe, "CATchy contagious CAT" thanks! Good to hear from you. :)

  43. Sorry one more thing. I hope you don't mind if I upvote you at NRO. You have some really good posts and I would like to say "cheers" with an upvote.

  44. Upvoting you from the banned section of the NRO peanut gallery. :)

  45. Thanks Demo. Mars told me my IP address is banned and I'm on "Santa's bad list." Even if I knew how to contact the mod I'm not sure how well that would go over. -- Thanks again, good to hear from you.

  46. Mars do you thoughts about a name for my cat blog?

  47. I planned to reply at length tomorrow. I've been busy working and just ducking in and out of disqus.

  48. That's clever. I like it!! I'll send you a post here when I get the blog up and running if that's cool with you. Thanks!

  49. The cat blog is live at,

    I'm installing disqus comments and will be posting soon. Viva la cats!

  50. Hi Demo! Whats up with the insane troll invasion at NRO on the Ferguson story? Holy carp that's insane. I've never seen so many vile racist trolls. Good luck with getting rid of them. :)

  51. What's up with the racist troll invasion at NRO on the ferguson story? Yikes. I've been watching the thread and holy carp it's crazy.

  52. There was a link to the story on Drudge. Drudge has a huge readership, so whatever bad apples visit on a given day, multiply the number by 1000.

    Then, the system failed so that posts were deleted, but the posters weren't banned, so they just kept sliming.

    There were several posters who were obvious left-wing provocateurs, who first posted racist things and then started posting with complaints about all the racist posts at NRO and why doesn't NRO do something. But I think the vast majority were unreconstructed bigots. There are some ugly people in this world.

  53. rebellious grrl, you might want to check out what these two gems "Mars Attacks" and "Demosthenes" are doing at National Review now. They are pretty much banning ALL conservatives on the site. So, you're not the only one experiencing this.

  54. Drudge, that would explain it. What a mess. I'm suprised the mod didn't shut down the thread. It was a mud slinging fest. Hope you didn't get too much mud on yourself. I'm in the back yard doing some last minute cleanup while the weather is still warm (50 degrees) before the temps drop back down. My boots are covered in mud but it's better than the mud those racist trolls are throwing. Good luck dealing with the trolls. Have a good evening.

  55. I've been watching it. When I got banned at NRO I was pissed off because I was banned on my first post. I thought it was unjust, hence this blog. I'm not a conservative and it's pretty much a given at some point I would have been banned there. I understand the frustration with being banned and not being able to state your viewpoint. However, after talking to Mars and Demo a "truce" has been called. There is an update on the situation at

    I'm completely in favor of first amendment rights. On this blog, bullying and threats of violence will not be tolerated.

  56. FYI one of your banned trolls arrived here.

  57. My apologies. I leave my comment history public so people can find me if there is trouble at NRO. Also, because I like my friends to be able to find me... as you have, on occasion...;)

    Maybe this is your chance to test out your mod skills and block him. I hope he doesn't start trampling your little garden here.

  58. No worries. I'm struggling to get disqus comments set up at the cat blog, I have a very slow internet connection and I can't get disqus to install. Disqus can be VERY annoying. Check out the cat blog if you get a chance. I'll be adding to it soon and post any ideas you have for articles. :)

  59. Mother Jones. Sorry was just adding an edit re the normality and common practice of abortion. Yes, I can see you are pro choice, unfortunately anti choicers will always try to control women, so I have standard responses now, which state the facts.

  60. I don't actually post often, but every now and then a friend of mine links articles to me and I go and have a look and comment, if the mood takes me. I will have a look at RH

  61. Indigenous tribes take herbs to induce abortions. Abortion has been around for as long as humans have.

    During Roman and Greek times, a herb called silphium went exinct because it was used to induce abortion.